5. Amya Pinka on being undecided

In today's episode, my friend and colleague Amya Pinka joins me to discuss being undecided about whether she wants to have children in the future. We discuss the various factors that are going into her decision - like having a little brother who is 20 years younger than her, the desire to travel freely and see the world, as well as her foray into being a COVID dog parent.

Amya is fiercely defiant of taking the traditional road and remains refreshingly unswayed by the masses. We had such a fun conversation and I'm hoping I can speak to her again as she evolves in her journey. 

The book I reference is called Regretting Motherhood: A Study by sociologist Orna Donath. 

*Please note: I mention the zika virus in relation to a trip to Africa, but that was incorrect; the topic between my mother and I came up in 2015 when we traveled to the U.S. Virgin Islands. 

Chapters

• 0:00 Navigating the Decision to Have Children
• 3:37 Exploring the Decision to Have Children
• 13:51 Regretting Motherhood and Societal Pressures
• 20:36 The Decision to Return a Dog
• 26:21 Parenthood vs Personal Freedom Dilemma

Transcript

Amya Pinka: 0:00

I hear, the best feeling in the world is the moment your child is born. I hear that again and again, and again and that makes me doubt it. That makes me feel like, well, should I miss out on that feeling? That seems like a magical, most wonderful feeling in the world. That magical feeling is tempting and it's intriguing to me.

Laura Allen: 0:22

Welcome back to another episode Childfree Me, a show where we examine the choice to be child-free and what it's like to navigate that decision in today's world. I'm your host, laura Allen, and today's guest is my fun and incredibly talented co-worker, amaya Pinka. When she heard that I was starting this podcast, amaya had initially expressed to me that she doesn't want to have children, so I of course, asked her to come on and talk about it, and then, a few days before we were scheduled to record, she reached out in kind of a panic and explained that in preparing for the episode, she actually realized she wasn't 100% decided on being child-free and that she was still in the fence. I still wanted her to come on anyways, because it's obviously a really interesting perspective, and I'm glad I did, because we had an amazing conversation and a ton of fun.

Laura Allen: 1:15

And in listening back to the episode, what I admire most about Amya is that she is fiercely unswayed by what others think or want for her and just seems genuinely open to taking different paths in life, regardless of whether children are involved or not. While we talk about many of the things that are impacting her decision, none of them really seem to do with societal expectations or even pressure from her parents, even though both of those things are definitely present. As with all of my guests, I am so grateful for Amaya's honesty and openness as she discusses what it's like to grapple with this decision, and I'm excited for you to hear about where she is in her journey. So with that, let's jump in. Amaya, thank you for being here.

Amya Pinka: 2:07

Thank you for having me, Laura.

Laura Allen: 2:08

I do feel like I somewhat dragged you onto this, but I am excited and so appreciative. Obviously, as someone who manages you, I feel like this is someone of a precarious situation, but again I'm so grateful. Why don't we start out with you talking a little bit around where you are currently in your journey to deciding whether or not to have children?

Amya Pinka: 2:28

Yeah, absolutely. So in preparing for this podcast, I had to do a little bit more self-reflection into this question, and it's something that I think about quite often. I'm nearing my 30s. In a few years I'm on the cusp, you know. Naturally, I think as a woman, we think about these things as we go into the end of our 20s and early 30s and reflect on what we want the next 20 years of our life to be.

Amya Pinka: 2:52

I think that I haven't come to a final decision of whether I'm definitely going to have kids or I'm definitely not going to have kids, and I was excited to join this podcast to give that perspective for women out there who are in this range of when we're expected to have kids, get married, et cetera, and say that it is okay to not know and be comfortable with that. In between notion of not really knowing, I feel comfortable in that I don't feel stressed about it. It doesn't keep me up at night, but it obviously it's my future right. So it's something that I do think of quite often. So that's where I was intrigued about your podcast, because I think it's okay to not know and to share that with other women. If this helps someone, that makes me happy.

Laura Allen: 3:35

I love that. I appreciate the honesty for the record.

Laura Allen: 3:37

Amaya had reached out to me prior to this, right before we were recording, and you were like I actually don't know, I haven't put a stake in the ground, do you not want me to come on? And I was like, of course I want you to come on. I think this is a really good point and I think you're right that it's worth exploring, because there's thousands of people out there wrestling with the same thing. So I'm curious. When I first reached out, you were like, yeah, I'm not having children. When you did start preparing for this podcast, what was that thought process? Or what are you currently wrestling with?

Amya Pinka: 4:06

One, the thought of me having a child that feels like, can that happen for me? Is that really in the cards for me? Maybe it's because I don't have a child yet and that seems so far away that it seems so unrealistic and almost feels like it may never happen, which also makes me think that I am so comfortable with feeling that way that maybe I don't, and that's okay. I'm also a very indecisive person at nature, sure, and I think you could. Everyone here listening could probably hear that. But I think that's okay too, because not everything is so black and white, and I think this is a decision, especially nowadays in this modern world, this crazy world that we live in, that it's a bit more common than not.

Amya Pinka: 4:42

I'm 28. I have a lot of friends in my age group that feels the same way, and I don't know if it's because that I'm not married yet, I don't know if that has something to do with it, but I certainly love my life and I love focusing on my career. I feel fulfilled in many different ways just being in a relationship without a child, living my day to day without it. The responsibility, and I think a big part of my decision also is because of the way the world is now. There's a lot going on in schools that is very controversial. Financially it's extremely difficult to maybe even afford myself sometimes, and there's a lot of different factors that are coming into play for me that put me in this bracket of I just don't know yet, but I'm more so lean towards. I don't think it's in the cards for me my choice.

Laura Allen: 5:31

Yeah, so 28 in my mind is so young. It sounds like you have some friends who are also thinking and talking about it. What are those conversations like? Do you guys talk about it, or is it not yet discussed?

Amya Pinka: 5:43

That's difficult. I hear more and more from women and people in my age saying that they just don't want kids. I think that is more common now than when I was growing up.

Laura Allen: 5:52

I feel like when.

Amya Pinka: 5:52

I was growing up, it was everybody was gonna get married and have kids. And now that we're at this age and the world has changed so much, I feel like it's just more and more common that I hear from people that they feel the same way as I do. It's almost the norm that people don't want kids. Haven't had like deep, deep discussions with friends about it. It's more so in passing, where I hear just casual conversations people saying that they don't want kids.

Laura Allen: 6:13

What about conversations with your family? Are you the?

Amya Pinka: 6:16

oldest. Yes, so I was an only child until I was 20 years old. Oh wow, I have a little brother who's eight years old. I had felt like I had a lot of pressure to give my parents a grandchild. My brother's dad is not the same as mine, so that pressure was alleviated for my mother, but not so much my father.

Amya Pinka: 6:35

I know my dad definitely wants grandkids and it doesn't really sway my decision. To be honest, I feel sympathy for him because I am his only kid, so I am that only chance for him to have his grandchild. I said I feel sympathy for him in that he loves kids and I think he definitely wants a grandchild. He's never said that to me, but he's definitely said that to my mother, who has disclosed that to me. It just it doesn't affect my decision because it is, at the end of the day, it's my life and that's a decision for me to make personally and I've never had a conversation with them about it directly, with, you know, approaching them and saying, hey, I've made the decision for myself, I'm not gonna have kids.

Amya Pinka: 7:10

I think it's just something that I'm kind of going with the flow with and I was. I had said I would do this podcast because I'm more on the side of a no than yes. So I haven't had that conversation directly with them, but I think they know where I kind of stand with that. They know that I'm on the fence with it and I think my mom is totally supportive and okay with it. I know she has. We've talked about it. It hasn't been like an in-depth conversation, but she just, you know, simply said she's okay with whatever I decide. And I know my dad is too. At the end of the day, he just, I think, would has that desire more so Got it.

Laura Allen: 7:40

So he's never said anything to you directly. He said it to your mom, who's related to you. Yes, why do you think he's never talked to you about it directly?

Amya Pinka: 7:47

My dad is very good at lecturing me and or being there for anything I need. However, personal one-on-one conversations are not his strong suit. It was never our thing. We'll do all the active stuff together, but those personal conversations are not really our thing. It's more so me and my mom's. He will often go to her to express something like that and then she'll be like hey, your dad's at this, and what's usually your reaction when you say that?

Laura Allen: 8:13

Is it just like an eye roll and like thanks mom, Exactly. Precisely, laura, sounds like your mom's touched it at a high level, but she hasn't expressed a deep desire for them. And I'm asking because I've actually never spoke to my parents. I've very proactively been saying I don't want kids for I actually don't even know how long, so they've never expressed it, but I still feel their desire for it.

Amya Pinka: 8:37

How? So Cause I wonder if I feel the same.

Laura Allen: 8:39

Yeah. So I think part of it is there's just this societal expectation that is truly, it feels, built in Because, again, they've never said anything to me, ever to the negative or positive around having children. And I think there was one moment, and I remember it vividly, when we were thinking about traveling to Africa we originally were going to go for 2020. And I think Zika was around. There was something about Zika and she was like you should actually take this seriously because you may one day want children. And I've latched on to that one comment that I've allowed that to become the narrative for me in my own mind. Around them wanting children, I'll say I'm the oldest of three girls, my dad, and whenever he sees little girls toddling around, he gets very emotional. I've seen him tear up about it. So again, there's those kinds of things.

Amya Pinka: 9:27

Now that you have brought that up, there is one comment that my dad has said in the past year that stood out to me as well. He has a best friend that he has been friends with since he was in high school. Him and his wife decided that they actually okay, let me start over. So my dad's friend since high school. He and his wife had made the decision to not have kids and they had been married for 15 plus years. I was the flower girl at their wedding when I was a little girl. I think it was more of her decision and his best friend respected her decision and they decided to move forward with the marriage and the relationship. But he had disclosed that something that he regretted in life not having a child. My dad brought that back to me and said one thing that he regrets in life is this, and maybe you should take that into consideration Inferred. That did not say that, but that was the overall message for sharing that piece of information that his friend disclosed to him.

Amya Pinka: 10:22

I feel like it was a vulnerable moment for his friend and my dad, and I think my dad took that as a lesson for me to take into consideration. Again, it is what it is. It's everyone's personal decision. It didn't make me feel guilty or make me feel, oh, I should now have a kid because this person feels this way.

Laura Allen: 10:39

It's something that the parent dynamic and that's great. That you don't feel guilty. That is impressive, because I feel like I, despite not even having a direct conversation with my parents, feel extremely guilty, for whatever reason. Maybe I'm hoping that this podcast will help me figure that out, like talking to people about it. So you were 20 when your brother was born? Yes, do you think having such a young sibling? Do you think that's impacted your decision? Either way, Absolutely.

Amya Pinka: 11:06

I'm really glad you brought the conversation here because I wanted to bring this up. When my brother was born, I was 20 years old. I was still living at home at my mother's house, so baby was going to be in the same house as I was. I was graduating from college at this point. My mom and father had me at 21. So it just was all very familiar for me.

Amya Pinka: 11:23

When I was 20 and my mom was having him, it almost felt like this was also my child. I helped name Aiden my stepdad and my mom chose the name that I chose for my brother and I felt very close to him before he was even born and then living with him when he was born. It definitely felt not like my child but like I was a part of his life in a different way. I'm 20 years older than him. It's not going to be the same dynamic as a traditional sibling relationship. I moved out of the house fairly quickly after he was born. I look at him as not just my little brother. It's a different type of bond. I mean you helped raise him. Yeah, I was there for the first few months of his life, day in and day out. It does. I'm not going to say I feel like a parent, but it does feel like a different special bond with my brother than as if we were four years apart and we were raised together.

Amya Pinka: 12:07

Now we live in different states. There in South Carolina, I'm in Maryland, I call him as much as I can FaceTime all the time, and it definitely kind of fills that void in a sense. For sure, it almost feels like I have a kid, but I don't have the responsibility of having a kid. He looks just like me, we have a lot of fun together, he's so cute, he looks up to me, it's adorable, and I get that kind of fulfillment without having the responsibility, like I said before. So it's kind of the best of both worlds there for me. Yeah, he shares your DNA. Yeah, exactly.

Amya Pinka: 12:36

And then maybe he can have kids one day. That will take a lot of pressure.

Laura Allen: 12:38

Just take the pressure off, you dump it right on him. Exactly Ideal.

Amya Pinka: 12:44

Ideal.

Laura Allen: 12:45

At this point? What do you think is keeping children on the table for you?

Amya Pinka: 12:49

It's the I keep an open mind and in life, my approach to life is to be open. Everyone has such a different perspective of life, from their different experiences and their journeys and the places they've been, the people they've encountered. And, with that said, it's hard for me to just put a hard no on it because I just don't know where my life is going to take me. So if 10 years from now, it seems like it's more realistic than it seems right now, I don't know if I will be opposed. So I'm not going to say that I will be now if I'm not in 10 years. I don't want to put a stamp on something that I'm just I just don't know where life's going to take me. So I want to keep an open mind to this decision.

Amya Pinka: 13:26

Right now it's probably a no. I'm great, I'm happy, I feel fulfilled in life. It's hard for me to say a hard no. I'm not having kids because I do feel so young still that I just don't know where life can take me. My mom had my brother at 41 years old.

Amya Pinka: 13:40

So, you just never know. She never thought she would have a kid again. So things like that make me think. You just literally never know where life's going to take. You Never know what's going to happen and with that said, I just like to keep an open mind to this decision.

Laura Allen: 13:51

So you said it's now the norm, or it feels like the norm in your friend group, to not have kids. Have any of them started to have children?

Amya Pinka: 13:58

Yes. So when I say it's the norm in my friend group, it's more so the norm in like acquaintances and casual encounters, and I also find people that are younger than me say it a lot more. Now too. In my friend group currently everyone's getting married. So I am the bridesmaid, the bridesmaid, the bridesmaid again and again. I know I hear all the stories. I do have a friend from high school who has a kid. Now I saw another friend from high school just had a kid. So it's starting to happen in my age group.

Laura Allen: 14:27

Do you think that will impact your decision when they all start having children, if they do?

Amya Pinka: 14:32

No, in fact, all of the friend weddings that I've gotten to have actually made me not want to have a wedding and spend $50,000 on a lot of other things. The traditional wedding might not even be my thing. No, kids, not a traditional wedding. I am going, totally going to do my own thing. So no, definitely not. I'm not easily swayed by the masses. That's always kind of been my thing since I was a kid.

Laura Allen: 14:57

Where do you think you get that I?

Amya Pinka: 14:58

think my mom, we're both really independent, confident women and she definitely instilled that in me as well. I like to not go with the norm, so I think it'd be awesome to be Aunt Amaya and you know and be there for them as much as I can be as we get older. All of my friends are like spread out now, so it's always difficult to stay in touch as you get older, but I hope that I can be in their lives and their kids' lives for as long as we can and be the cool aunt, yeah the dream.

Laura Allen: 15:23

Yeah, the cool older sister and the cool aunt. Exactly. I love that you don't get swayed by the masses I'm in awe of that and you don't feel guilt from your parents. Are there any societal norms or pressures that you do feel?

Amya Pinka: 15:39

Definitely. I think it's less so the society pressures of having a child and getting married. It's more so my internal debate in my head, which is do I really wanna miss out on having a kid, having this person that looks like me and is my DNA and I can mold, and it could be really fun, or it could be really scary, and do I want to miss out on that? I don't know yet and that's what keeps me on the fence. I feel fine missing out on it, but I don't know if I feel like I want a kid. So it's a weird thing. It's more so the internal of just personally grappling with the decision of do I want to have that experience of motherhood that I hear?

Amya Pinka: 16:16

The best feeling in the world is the moment your child is born. Everything changes. I hear that again and again and again and that makes me doubt it. That makes me feel like, well, should I miss out on that feeling that people describe? That seems like a magical, most wonderful feeling in the world. That magical feeling is tempting and it's intriguing to me. I had that feeling with my brother when he was born. My mom literally kicked me out of the room two minutes before she gave birth to my brother and then I was back in like 15 minutes later. It was a really quick birth.

Laura Allen: 16:45

Oh, wow, that's impressive. Yeah, I know.

Amya Pinka: 16:48

She had like the easiest pregnancy at 41. It was insane. So anyway, when he was born, I held him with the minutes of him being born and I had that love and that feeling, but it was more so a sibling love. Obviously it wasn't like a child love. So I had something similar and as comparably intense as in that love and falling in love with this child that was just born. But of course that wasn't my kid, it was my mom's kid. That's the only thing, I think that makes me grapple with the decision.

Laura Allen: 17:13

Yeah, I understand what you mean, that like magical moment. What I hear is there's no love like the love you feel for a child. And who wouldn't want to feel that Exactly? I've talked about this before. I already struggled with FOMO, and it makes it hard to distinguish between do I want a child or am I worried about not having a child? How will I ever know if this is the apex of love? How am I supposed to ever know if that's right for me? Because there's also the fear of that's not the case and I don't think it's talked about. But there is this growing number of people who have started to come out and say oh, I actually regret having my child, which is so difficult to hear. Even me, even me, like I'm this monster, but it's difficult for me to hear that and, of course, as a child, I would want my mom to love me unconditionally.

Amya Pinka: 18:05

I would never want to hear my mom say, sure, god's having me, exactly.

Laura Allen: 18:09

There's a growing number of people who are coming out and talking about it openly. That's a different type of fear. There's actually a book that has been written with their testimonials. It's difficult stuff to think about, but I'm wondering what pressures did they feel and what would the world look like if people didn't have this pressure or feel pressured to have children?

Amya Pinka: 18:27

And I wonder how many of those people had unplanned pregnancies, or how many were planned pregnancies that they then, years later, have come to find that they second guess or regret this decision. That would also be an interesting key point to realize, do you know?

Laura Allen: 18:41

So this book in particular was by a researcher. Okay, so I'm interjecting here quickly because I didn't have all the facts straight during my interview with Amaya and want to make sure in post-production that I am providing the correct information. The book I just referenced is called Regretting Motherhood, by sociologist Orna Dunneth I hope I'm pronouncing that last name correctly and what Orna points out in her research is that, while there is a common assumption that people who don't have children will ultimately regret it, no one ever talks about the possibility that the opposite might also be true that women who have children might regret it. She therefore conducts a multi-year research study with women from across the world who regret having children, and what's important to note is that she's very careful to distinguish between women who feel ambivalence towards motherhood and women who actually feel regret. Basically, how she defines regret is women who not only acknowledge the hardships of motherhood, but express their belief that the advantages of being a mother do not outweigh the disadvantages, and they basically acknowledge that if given the choice again, they would definitively choose not to have children. It's obviously a very tough topic and a really fascinating one, especially because, as far as I know, it's the only one of its kind. The topic is obviously really taboo and very few people have written about it, if anyone else. I'm absolutely going to do a separate episode about it, so I'm not gonna go into any more detail here, but for now just wanted to make sure that I had the right information and we'll definitely add a link to the book in the show notes.

Laura Allen: 20:36

Okay, so now back to the episode. That's intense. It's intense and we're all conditioned to feel awful about it. It's a difficult topic to wrestle with. Going back to this concept of this magical moment that is sort of dangled out there in front of you Is it coming from your friends? Is it coming from your parents? Is it coming from the movies and Disney? Like, where do you think you're getting this messaging of magical moment?

Amya Pinka: 21:00

I think I've just I've heard it personally from people that have just had kids. I know my friend from high school who just had a kid is obsessed every single day as a picture on Instagram. Can I go totally off topic of something I just thought of the Okay. So I, during COVID, joined the masses. Not planned, I got a dog, got a COVID dog. Didn't have a COVID baby, but got a COVID dog. It was actually my mom's. He was a really difficult puppy. I took him off her hands and trained him and I had him for the past three years.

Amya Pinka: 21:29

My life has dramatically taken a turn in the past year. I'm just in a different space, and so having a dog proved to be quite difficult over the past year, and my lifestyle changed a bit. It felt like I was a single mom. Dog bills are high, dog sitters are expensive, being home all the time or running home to come feed him, to walk him, et cetera. I made almost a lot and was becoming more so. Looking in my dog's eyes, I felt bad because I'm either at my desk all day working.

Laura Allen: 22:00

Looking in my dog's eyes. I love it. I mean, it's true, we all look into our dog's eyes. Keep going, I'm so sorry.

Amya Pinka: 22:06

But like he was my child, okay, and he, I swear, was half human, he's a Frenchy. They are very human-like. If anybody has Frenchies out there, he would look at me when I'm working all day and then I get off work and I go out and I'm always out and about. I'm very active in my life. I'm not really a homebody, I'm always on the go, and so when I look in my dog's eyes he just looks sad.

Amya Pinka: 22:25

And me the decision to give him back to my mom. My mom, my stepdad, my little brother are home 24-7. He needs that love, that attention. He needs that attention that I just wasn't able to provide him anymore. So I basically returned my child, and with that said, you know you can't do that with an actual child, and so that also made me reflect a lot. This just happened a month ago when I gave him back to my parent, my mom's. It didn't fit my current lifestyle anymore having a dog and that responsibility. It's a bit like I literally returned my child last month and it is really freeing.

Amya Pinka: 22:56

I feel really free.

Laura Allen: 22:57

I was going to ask how are you doing? We should have talked about this in the beginning. You look great. You see, you're truly glowing.

Amya Pinka: 23:05

I am thriving. Okay, it's a newfound freedom. I don't know why I signed myself up for it, but it was because of COVID. We were just home doing that thing for so long. It was really easy. It was a good test run. It was a good test run. I was really scared leading up to the time that I was going to bring him to my mom's house. I was really trying to soak in the last moments alone with him at my house and I was really scared. I would just feel completely alone at home. But I have not felt that. I feel great. I feel like I can just go and do whatever I want at any time and that is an awesome feeling without worrying about dogs, itters, walking, et cetera. It's just a freeing feeling and it feels awesome. So I'm going to roll with this feeling for a while. So kids are not on the horizon for a very long time.

Laura Allen: 23:40

It sounds like you made the right choice. Yes, yes, and I do think again. This child decision it is very permanent and there is no going back to marriages. You can go back on dogs, you can go back on houses. There are big decisions and this is irreversible, Absolutely.

Laura Allen: 23:56

It's permanent, it's forever. I will say we do not have a dog yet. I am 37 and have yet to commit to literally everything. Just got engaged so I'm committed to one thing we don't have plants. We've really designed a life of pick up travel when you want no responsibility, which is lovely. I am so grateful we have a self watering bulb that Zach's mother gave us. She gives us one every year. She started out by trying to give us plants and that didn't go well, so she has now stepped it down to a bulb. She was like, literally, don't touch it, Keep it somewhere where it doesn't get too much light. And I'm like, oh, it's going to be a struggle, and it just kind of sits there and I'm like this is winning.

Amya Pinka: 24:36

I don't know if this is a funny coincidence, however, I have not been able to successfully keep a plant alive and or make it grow. Yes, adult goal of mine as well. Let's see if we can achieve it, laura. Let's see.

Laura Allen: 24:46

Yes, what I've always said is I can barely keep myself on alive. I don't think I should be trusted to keep another human alive. We do eventually want a dog. Zach is a huge dog person. He loves dogs. I like dogs. I don't think I'm this like big dog person. We would have already have one, but again, we live in Chicago. You can't get a dog until you're ready to go outside at 5 am in the middle of January in Chicago and walk this thing. So we're not there yet. But I am now doubting the dog decision because, like you said, staring into this dog's eyes having sadness, I watch a lot of pet and dog videos on Instagram, like we all do, and like ever, a dog looks sad or has any sort of emotional reaction. I have this deep emotional reaction. I don't think I can handle this. The responsibility of this, other things, happiness. I just don't think I can handle it. So I empathize with your decision.

Amya Pinka: 25:37

I will say the love that this dog had for me was pretty special. It's a really cool bond. It's not a human child bond.

Amya Pinka: 25:44

However it was really cool and a really amazing feeling that this animal like literally loved me so much. He depended on me for everything, right, and that's kind of the same concept a lot different. Obviously, I think the other thing that you brought up travel. That's the other thing with me. I want to do a lot more traveling. I obviously be all kind of put a massive hold on that when COVID hit in 2020, but pre-COVID I was traveling a lot and it's just a really big passion but enjoyment of mine, and I want to be able to do that no strings attached and enjoy my adult life, where I'm a little bit more successful in my career and can take that time to hopefully save up and travel the world a bit more as I get older. So it's also a big part of it. It's do you want to dedicate your life to your child or do you want to dedicate your life to yourself and maybe your partner's self, and travel and enjoy life in a different way than we're supposed to?

Laura Allen: 26:35

And there are many people who would argue you can have both. I guess if you're a billionaire and have nannies, and yeah, absolutely, oh, yeah, that's another thing, the amount of help I would need as a mother, literally everything I would need outsourced and paid for. That is another thing that has been discussed at length. Okay, amaya, thank you, this is a really fun conversation. I appreciate you hopping on taking risk with me and for being the best direct report in the world.

Amya Pinka: 27:02

Thank you, Laura. This was really fun. I enjoyed the conversation so much and I learned a lot today, honestly, so thank you.

Laura Allen: 27:08

And that's it for today. Thank you for joining me. If you enjoyed today's episode, don't forget to subscribe, or please consider leaving a review wherever you listen to your podcast, and remember to tune in next week, on the 31st, for a special Halloween episode. I can't wait and I'll see you then, thank you.