Childfree Me
A gathering place for people who have chosen the road less traveled by. Listen in as I speak with friends, family and strangers about what it’s like to choose not to have children in a child-obsessed world.
Childfree Me
15. The One Where I Speak With My Sisters
Today's episode is a family affair when I'm joined by my two younger sisters! Together, we delve into our shared memories, from their earliest recollections of my staunch declarations against having children, to where they currently stand in their own decisions regarding parenthood. We explore what it's like to grapple with the fear of regret, revel in our 'villain era' moments, and even reminisce about that time one of us got kicked off a church mission trip (which, admittedly, has nothing to do with being childfree but was too juicy to leave out). Tune in for a candid conversation between sisters on the choice to be #childree.
Email me questions at childfree.me.podcast@gmail.com - I'd love to hear from you!
Follow on the Gram: @childfreeme_
Music from #Uppbeat:
https://uppbeat.io/t/andrey-rossi/seize-the-day
License code: 10MWPZUG3AZBGZPR
I try to avoid regret at all costs. Yes, I'm always trying to make the best decision and I want to be 100% sure.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I want to be 100% sure in my choice. I don't like taking risks. My fear is I will have kids and there will be one moment of one day where I regret having those kids and that will probably happen.
Speaker 2:And then, if I don't have kids, my fear is that there will be one moment of one day where I will regret not having kids, and that will probably happen. And can that be okay? And then the next moment you don't regret it, and then the next moment you know something happens and you feel so grateful that you've made this choice, either direction, but I feel like I want to make the choice, knowing that that 100% will happen, and that is an impossibility.
Speaker 3:Welcome back everyone to another episode of Child Free Me, a show where we examine the choice to be child free and what it's like to navigate that decision in today's world. I'm your host, laura Allen, and today is an extra special episode because I am joined by my two sisters. Neither are technically child free, but I thought it would be interesting and important to hear their perspective, both on just their memories of growing up and when I started talking about not wanting children, and also on how my decision has impacted their decisions, both in a positive way and a negative way. I honestly was not expecting to learn anything new. I mean, the three of us are pretty close. We talk a lot, but I was pleasantly surprised, actually, about the things that I did learn. For instance, I don't think I've ever had a conversation with my sisters about freezing our eggs. I had no idea what their perspective was on that.
Speaker 3:We also talk about how, while both of my sisters have been over the top supportive of this podcast and me and my journey, it's been really difficult for one of my sisters to listen to the episodes and so she actually hasn't been following along, and so we get to dig in a little bit around why? Why it's been so difficult for her and it was just incredible to hear their perspectives. Honestly, listening back, it sounds a bit like we've just started recording one of our regular calls. I think in the beginning we were all a little nervous and then by the end we had forgotten that we were being recorded and it was just one of our normal conversations, with my sister's little dog, otis, barking in the background. So I appreciate you listening and I can't wait for you to meet them. Let's jump in. Charlotte and Clara, welcome to Child Free Me. Thank you so much. Okay for everyone listening. We actually have three people on this call or this interview, which is a first in Child Free Me history. I have my two younger sisters.
Speaker 1:So to give a lay of the land.
Speaker 3:I am the oldest, and then my middle sister is named Charlotte, and then our baby sister is named Clara, who's not in fact a baby. We're all full adults, but I have my two sisters with me. We're all excited and a little nervous. I think I'm more excited than nervous right now. Okay, so to start, we're gonna do a little activity just to get us warmed up. Let's all describe how we're feeling about this episode by saying one word my word is supported, cause I feel supported by both of you in my podcasting journey.
Speaker 1:I don't know if I can think of one word, so I'm gonna panic and just say excited, cause I'm very excited and happy to be here.
Speaker 3:And Clara Bell, okay, laura yours was grateful, supported no, but I am also grateful. Oh sorry, that's just the end of.
Speaker 2:I heard the end of it I am. I don't think nervous is the word, I'm curious. And yeah, I'll say curious and excited is two words, but I'll use them both.
Speaker 1:Okay, well, but I want a second word. The second word is proud, cause I'm so freaking proud of Laura for doing this podcast. I'm so impressed and I'm just an oh so well done.
Speaker 3:I love how we all broke the rules and came in with two words.
Speaker 3:I think that really sets a stage for how this conversation is gonna go so unlike us, and I love that for us. So the first thing I would love to have you both talk about I think I've talked to you each individually, but not all together, and not to make this about me, but to hear your perspectives and really your memory of when and how I started talking about not wanting to have children and what that was like for you as younger sisters, and really your experience with me being child-free.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I'll start because I feel like I'm gonna have an earlier memory. Then, when you were younger than Claire's gonna have my whole life. I always remember you saying you were never gonna get married. And then I have a memory of you saying having children ruins everything.
Speaker 3:What was I saying that in relation to her? Is that just like screaming out the window?
Speaker 1:Just like a passing comment. No, I think it. Maybe I was in first and second grade, but we were on the topic of like getting married and Laura said you know, I'm never gonna get married, I don't want to have children. And someone asked why. And you're like, well, children ruin everything. And I don't really remember having an opinion about that. I'd be like, all right, well, I don't really see how that's true, but you know, she's welcome to think that and we were in fact children ourselves at this point.
Speaker 1:Yes, you were. So I don't know where you got that deep insight as a child, but yeah, it was more. I feel like you not wanting to have children was kind of an assumption based on the fact that you didn't want to get married.
Speaker 3:I actually love that you were talking about this, because I have recently, through this podcast, come to the realization that I think some of my aversion to marriage and really being so against it for so long was the assumption that with marriage came children. So my very first guest on this podcast is Maricela, and she was the first woman who was happily married from a very young age, who was just very directly like nope, we have chosen not to have children. And it was mind blowing to me, and I was almost 30 at that point, so it was hard to separate those two things.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I remember when you had that revelation in that episode and that makes a lot of sense because your reason for marriage was always children ruin everything.
Speaker 2:So that's my memory. I definitely don't have any distinct memories, obviously, being seven years younger. I just have a different perspective or like just a different dynamic with that, and I think it was just. I always knew it to be true, like I can't think of a time when I did not understand that that was the situation.
Speaker 1:I agree.
Speaker 2:I think it probably came from the. You know, I don't want to get married perspective and I'm really trying to think now back on it and it just, I think, because I guess I was so young when you formulated that desire and opinion because I would say by seven you had it and yeah, you've known this for a long time, so I think it was just since I've been born. That was the thing. It always just felt really normal. I was just, you know, that was just the truth of the matter and as Charlotte was talking, I was trying to think it through and I'm curious if I went through a phase where I was like not about sort of going to have kids, because it's just how that this works.
Speaker 2:He's not having kids, we're not having kids, and that's just how it's going to go. Like, I think that was just. It was just normal in my head. I wouldn't be surprised if I went through that phase.
Speaker 3:There was a point like I thought it would be so cool to be pregnant and have a child not to raise a child, but just I thought it would bring me a lot of attention and I feel like it was around the time mom was pregnant with you. Well, that makes sense.
Speaker 1:That makes a lot of sense to me.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and then I learned what you had to do in order to have a child and I was like that sounds terrifying, but I think I mean I was old enough. I remember her being born. I remember going to the hospital seeing her when she was baby and I also remember being like she is very cute. So we grew up in Boston but we moved to Cincinnati for a brief period of time and Clara was, I think two.
Speaker 3:And I remember being like she's so cute and I mean, clara wasn't very. Clara was an exceptionally cute baby, so I'm not immune to, but no one's Right Exactly.
Speaker 1:But it's interesting that. But I think children are the devil.
Speaker 3:It wasn't like I walked around being like oh my God, my younger sisters are so annoying. I never want children. I think it was just this knowing within me.
Speaker 1:I do remember, though, when we were having these conversations or rather when I was observing these conversations happening, that I got the distinct impression I was like oh, this is an unusual choice because of the reactions other people had to it. So other people were like what, what do you mean? There was always a reaction to it, and it made me realize that I was like oh, that's an unusual choice. So I think I'm probably it was always like well, I'm having kids, but she's allowed to walk that path by herself.
Speaker 3:Maybe I was just doing it for the reactions. I mean, I don't think so because you're still.
Speaker 1:You have a podcast about it.
Speaker 3:Now I do If you, were you really committed to that? Yeah, yeah. Do you remember any reactions specifically?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I remember getting the feeling of dismissal, people laughing it off and not really paying attention and not giving it any credence because it's like oh, well, she's young.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I feel like it's normal when you're seven.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and you're making these, putting your stake in the sand at such an early age. People are like, well, we don't know if that's true, plot twist, it is.
Speaker 3:Speaking of podcast, so I've had the podcast out for a couple of months. At this point, charlotte, you have listened to it and Clara you have not listened to it. So maybe, charlotte, you can start by just talking about what it's been like, anything that I guess it's inspired, or your reactions to it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I to be honest, this sounds so crazy to say but before this podcast, before listening to this podcast, this decision was never even considered. My whole life, looking back on how I thought about kids and having kids, I always thought it was just going to happen, because that's what happened. But I remember my entire life being absolutely petrified by the idea of being pregnant and having just imagining some being growing inside of me freaked me out and I told I would tell my friends if I ever got pregnant you would have to put me into a coma through the pregnancy because I would not be able to deal.
Speaker 3:And yet you also don't like needles, and I think the epidural is like this yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:You also have this idea that I'm terrified of needles, and that's not the case. I get flu shots every year. I'm totally fine. Oh, but you used to be. Yeah, I'm like middle school. Oh, I thought that was still a thing.
Speaker 1:Nope, pregnancy just never sounded appealing whatsoever, not even to mention giving birth, but somehow still, I never considered the option of like, maybe I don't want kids. And it wasn't until I listened to your first episode that I was like oh my god, this is an option. There's a whole other option of existence out there where I don't actually have to have kids, and so that was really cool for me, because I didn't realize how much I needed to have this conversation until I listened to one of your episodes, so I loved it.
Speaker 3:Where are you currently?
Speaker 1:on having kids. I am, I would say, 70, 30 on leaning towards not having kids, maybe 80, 20 on not having kids. I just I try to be really mindful and this can be a conversation we go into later, but I'm still trying to figure out where I sit. But right now I'm like I don't actually think I want kids. But I don't want to take away from Claire's answer and I think this is an interesting conversation that we should come back to.
Speaker 3:Okay. So, claire, you have. I think you listened to episode one out of duress.
Speaker 2:So, to clarify, it was not out of duress and I it was, I think, through listening to episode one that I kind of was like, oh boy, this might not be for me at the current moment. You know, I think it's a number of reasons, primary of which is that the conversation of kids has been a very prevalent conversation and a relatively charged conversation between me and my now husband, greg. I have gone through that's partially because I have gone through many different phases in my life regards to kids and which I feel like is also a topic for maybe another point of this podcast, because we can certainly get into that, because it's convoluted. So when Greg and I met, I was pretty firmly in the no kids camp. I spent most of my college years in that camp and shortly thereafter college. So it has, to say the least, been a topic of conversation for a very long time, with us trying to figure out what, what makes sense for our relationship and where we together want to land on that.
Speaker 2:And I think, just listening to it, I feel like I am just constantly under a barrage of stimuli from both directions. There's the constant messaging of this is what you're supposed to do, this is what happens when you get married. This is there's so lovely and it's the best thing ever and it's the choice that you're supposed to make and whatever that is. And then there's the messaging of they ruin your life and you can never do anything, ever again, and it's the hardest thing we've ever done and like choose wisely and it was just kind of too much. So I feel like I listened to the first one. It was like, clearly, this is a lot and I maybe need to take a minute and figure out where I stand before I dive into this.
Speaker 3:Where would you say, where does the messaging come from? And this is a question to both of you, because I think we, we all experience the pressure and the messaging, but in your minds, like, maybe, start with where does the negative messaging beyond me being like children, ruin your lives from a very early age Like, where are you getting that messaging?
Speaker 2:It's a good question, I mean, I think it's well for one and this is maybe going to sound stupid, but like I now get fed like social media algorithm fed content on this all the time on trial for you stuff, it flip flops.
Speaker 2:It's super fun for me Because it's like, just as I'm flip flopping, it's like every week I'll just get fed content from TikTok, being like, look at how magical my life is because I didn't have kids, and like, because this is the choice we made in you know, whatever it is, and then the next week I'll get the opposite kind of content.
Speaker 2:So from that, to be honest, the group of friends that I have, none of them have kids and yet and there are very few of us that have been of the type that are like 100%, this is what we want kids is it? We're definitely going to have kids. So it's been not necessarily negative conversations, but just honest conversations about what the reality of that is, what the reality of children are, and so it's never been like an assumption. And then I would say the other one is just like I, literally, the other day, my, my coworker just randomly messaged me and was like we were chatting about something else and she said Listen, if you're ever thinking about having kids, talk to me, because I'll give you like the not so unicorn and rainbows version of it, like it's super tough, just kind of out of nowhere.
Speaker 2:I feel like I've just gotten it, like from a bunch of different sources. I feel like because I'm also I'm very aware of it and I'm not naive to the like what having children means and I didn't want them for a really long time and I kind of stakes my claim on that and I also think I used it for attention in college because it was different than everyone else around me or it was different than like the norm, and so I was like great, I'll be different and kind of be interesting, and because of that I've just been open to it and, like, I think, looking for it. So I've received more of it.
Speaker 3:So you mentioned your friend group and I'm actually interested in this because my assumption was your friend group similar to mine. You know, everyone is pretty standard life plan has followed the normal path for most of their life and for the most part again, this is stereotyped. But Southern esque school you live in a Southern ish city, she lives in Washington DC and I'm actually surprised that there hasn't been more of a yes, we're all going to eventually have children. Do you have anyone who has put a stake in the ground and being child free in your friend group, or is everyone still figuring it out for themselves?
Speaker 2:Not that I've been informed of that. They have put that stake in the ground. I think everyone's just figuring it out. I think that yes.
Speaker 2:I went to a Southern school but a lot of my friend group was from the North, so we definitely had a mix, but a lot of them were and it's just.
Speaker 2:It's just been really interesting to kind of watch it unfold because everyone's taken a very different path and approach to it and there are some that now definitely want kids and that's their, that's the plan and that's what they're going to do. I had, I mean, I, my good friend who was for a long time just interested in adoption. That was what she felt called to do and I think that's kind of shifted over the years. Yeah, no one has like said firmly in or out. Well, we have some that have said firmly in, but we have not had any that have said firmly out, and it's just I feel honestly really grateful for that because I feel like the being a part of that group, it's just everyone is kind of all the paths are really different and everyone's figuring out for themselves and the conversations are honest and it's been really helpful to have that rather than a bunch of friends who just, you know, did what society says.
Speaker 3:So I'm interested in what Greg's perspective was like coming into the relationship and like where he currently is on the topic. Should we get him on?
Speaker 2:Yes, I can't as much answer for like his perception of the beginning of the relationship, because he can answer for that, but I will say it definitely became a topic of conversation, probably like three years inish maybe, when we started to kind of understand that this was going to be the thing the long term. I had some very we had some very intense conversations about it and I will own the fact that I came in strong. I came in very strong to these conversations and he kind of asked me asking him why do you want kids? Because I felt like I knew how I felt about like all the reasons why I didn't want them and the reasons why I they were like I did want them or I felt strongly about those. And so I wanted to hear from him. And his answer to me was I just kind of always thought I would and my response was that's not good enough and so a little strong probably could have the back a little bit, but I love it we.
Speaker 2:What that led to was a lot of real conversations about you know what the realities of children are. If we have children, what are my expectations, what are his expectations, how is this gonna work? And that was over many, many years. So where we stand now, or where he stands now, is, I kind of picture it, like we are. We have gotten closer on the spectrum and we are both kind of in the middle and he leans slightly towards like skewed, slightly towards wanting them from the middle and I am slightly towards not wanting them from the middle, although I will tell you that changes on a weekly basis.
Speaker 2:So, sometimes I go back and forth. Which to his credit, is very confusing to have as a partner because that's like kind of a life big life choice that I just keep going this way on. So I think that both of us can picture a life for both options and that life is good. That is both great and also really difficult because no matter which option you choose, you are sacrificing the other option and there are difficulties with both.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I actually think to your comment around it can be scary to flip flop on such a big decision. In my mind it's indicating that you're critically thinking about it. There's some people who just always know they're gonna have children, but I don't think they think about the impact it's gonna have and so I think the purpose of this podcast is certainly not to convince people not to have kids.
Speaker 3:I think what I'm trying to just start the conversation around is moving away from where Greg was coming from, which is I just always thought it was something you do to thinking about what other options there are.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I think that you know, while I maybe could have approached it differently, that was also my intent with our conversations, and what it has led to is some really good conversations about what this means for us. So, should we make that decision, I fully trust that we will have made it with a thorough understanding of what it means and what we're gonna do.
Speaker 2:And, like you know, I've been very clear if we do this, I one, we obviously must continue to be in therapy as we do, but that's just gonna continue. Two I want a parenting coach. I want parenting specific support for us. And you know what other support do we want to continue to create the life that we want, while also introducing children. So I think you know ultimately we end up better for it because of the conversations.
Speaker 1:Absolutely so. All those listening, I am the single-pringle of the group and I'm so glad that I didn't, if I had gotten married, say like right out of college I would have been like, all right, well, I guess we're having kids because that's just the sequence of events, and I would be one of those people who didn't really think about the implications, the consequences, the benefits, the cons, all the things. I wouldn't have thought about it. I would have just been like, all right, well, this is happening. I wouldn't have thought if I had really wanted it, which is really scary to me. But now, like at least I'm having this conversation with myself, like okay, well, do I really want that with the kids?
Speaker 2:I think it's really hard. I think it's really. I will say it has been very difficult for me and I've spent a lot of time trying to identify what I quote unquote really want, because of all of the various ways that it's influenced by everything around me and you know like I said, there was a time when I was like definitely don't want kids.
Speaker 2:And then coming out of that and asking myself the questions of like well, why don't I want them? Is it because I'm scared? Is it because I assume it's gonna go a certain way and I don't want it to go that way? Is it because I want you know, I don't wanna sacrifice my life in that way, or whatever it is? And asking myself those really hard questions Was the time when I started to be like okay, like I felt like I was staking my claim, just to stake it, just to say that, and because I chose that in college or whatever you know, whenever I kind of decided to be the girl that doesn't want kids. And then that started kind of a chain reaction which led to a big, whole panic and was like well, what?
Speaker 1:do I really want.
Speaker 2:And then it's been difficult. It's a hard question to answer.
Speaker 1:I can totally relate to that because I can feel that on my side too, like oh, this is actually an option. I'm gonna stake my claim in this side now because it's an option and I like being able to say I don't want kids, I like that, it's different, I like that it's. It causes a reaction. Yeah, for sure, there's also aspects of like that sounds exhausting being with a child, entertaining them constantly, teaching them how to be a functioning adult, when I'm barely a functioning adult. Like that sounds absolutely exhausting.
Speaker 3:So it's funny you've both said this. I don't like the reaction. I don't like oh, I love it being different. I remember this when I was living in New York City and I went shopping for umbrellas. They had this colorful fun umbrella on sale but I paid full price for the black one because I was like I don't want to stand out and even though I've known for it feels like almost forever that I don't want children, I hate how different it makes me and there's a feeling of being left out of the club which I'm interested. Clara wants. And well, charlotte, you have friends who are pregnant. What has your reaction been to when your really close friends tell you that they're having children?
Speaker 1:So everyone has had their baby. So currently no one is pregnant Because they all have babies. I was so happy for them when I first, when I found out, because I knew that they wanted them and that's great. I also, I think there was a mourning period too, because the relationship that you have with your friends changes when they have kids. Like that's just, that's inevitable and that's totally understandable.
Speaker 1:It also marks a really different point in your life, in my life, than I was with them and theirs, and that kind of that creates a feeling of isolation, like you said, laura, like a feeling like, oh, I'm not in this club, we're not, you know, in the same. We went to college together and then we were outside of college together and we've kind of just like moved along and now there's just like a great divide. But I never, when they told me that they were having a child, I never once felt a pain of jealousy. I was like, oh, I wish that was me, never once. It was more of like, oh God, good for them, but I would not want that.
Speaker 1:And again I look back at that feeling. I'm like, okay, am I feeling that? Because is there like a deeper, is that covering for a deeper feeling of isolation or jealousy or something that I'm not being honest with myself about. Or am I trying to be like, oh well, this is, I'm trying to make the best of the situation? I'm not really sure. But yeah, I've never felt that kind of. Even when I see pictures of babies or young children or walking down the street, I've never been like, oh, I really want that.
Speaker 3:I think I have a slightly stronger reaction to my close friends becoming pregnant which again I've talked about but it is because I know I'm never gonna follow them on this path. I do think, honestly, adult relationships can and should change right. So the baby itself, or having children, I don't think it's a bad thing and it's very brief. But there's always this I will never follow them down that path and I think so. One of my close friends just found out that one of her best friends is pregnant and I asked her how she was feeling and I could tell the reaction is just different Because I think she knows that she'll one day be a part of that club with her together. And again, it's just, it's something that will always set me apart, which I don't necessarily like.
Speaker 2:Yeah, to be clear just back to the reaction. I will own the fact that it's gonna be so stupid, but I liked the reaction I got from guys because I felt like it made me more attractive to guys in college who were like great and definitely we're on the same boat, and so let's just be very clear.
Speaker 2:I can fully understand that, that reaction, especially as someone who firmly believes that that is their truth, as someone who kind of is in both paths, I probably just have a different reaction to it. So I can definitely understand. Mine was from because I thought it made me more interesting to guys. Fair, I mean, I don't want to discount the fact that I truly did not like I wasn't just using it to be interesting to guys. It was an added bonus, and so that made me more likely to say it out loud. But it is how I felt truly.
Speaker 1:So I don't want to discount that, but yeah, you all know I'm in my villain era, so, like anything that gets a reaction, I'm a big fan of.
Speaker 3:Do you want to describe what a villain era is for the listeners?
Speaker 1:Claire, I feel like you should describe it because you're the one who called me out on it.
Speaker 2:I mean, I feel like it's just the time in your life where you just kind of want to burn it to the ground.
Speaker 1:I very little fucks to give.
Speaker 2:Yeah, everyone hits that point where it's like I, you know, maybe I've been ascribing to norms and I don't want to anymore, or you know. I've been doing things the way and I'm gonna burn it to the ground and I feel like it's a very necessary phase.
Speaker 1:I love it.
Speaker 3:I'm relishing in it.
Speaker 1:Are we allowed to swear on this podcast?
Speaker 3:Sometimes I bleep it out for more of the drama. That's so cute.
Speaker 1:I love the drama. Yeah, I. This is my, my rebellion phase. I never rebelled in as a teenager, so I'm doing it now. We're rebelling against patriarchy. What about the Puerto?
Speaker 3:Rico trip.
Speaker 1:Girl. I tried to rebel. I did literally nothing wrong on that trip. So all y'all listeners out there I was kicked off of a church mission trip for drinking. I love this is where this has ended up. I did not drink, I did not get drunk, but I have FOMO so I wasn't going to just sit aside where my friends had fun. So I was just. I pretended I was drunk and I ran around like a crazy person. I was in eighth grade. I pretended I was drunk and we got kicked off and I got in so much trouble.
Speaker 3:I also want it known that I went on the same trip. It must have been three years ahead of you and I did get drunk and you did get.
Speaker 2:God damn it. Let the record state. And then by the time I came around, I was not allowed on said trip.
Speaker 1:You had to go to New Orleans and sleep on the ground in the church. I did, yeah.
Speaker 2:Oh, I think third time they were like you know what? We're not even going to play, we're gonna try. Okay, so we digress.
Speaker 1:You digress, Okay. So all this to say I like being in my villain era. I get kicked off of a freaking mission trip, I get grounded. I don't have kids. It's all fitting in my brand.
Speaker 3:So, charlotte, I'm interested. What did you? You're single as a Pringle, or you're the single, pringle, I'm a single.
Speaker 3:Pringle. It's a single Pringle, so not necessarily dating right now, but I'm interested to hear your thoughts on navigating the dating scene. This is a question I like to ask a lot of my guests of how you are planning to approach that. How are you thinking about the conversation of children? Because it's different now right, it's different than in your 20s. I feel like I did talk about it in my 20s when I was running around New York City. I don't remember Probably a variety of reasons, but some of us on this call are in our early 30s, some are in their mid 30s, some are virgin on late 30s. So I would be interested on your perspective on how you are thinking about navigating that, or maybe you're not.
Speaker 1:Well, as I said before, I'm a single Pringle that is not ready to mingle. But should that day ever come, I'm really glad that we established that I'm in my villain era, because I feel like this has a big part in it. I will come into it really hot and be like I don't care what your decision is, because it's my body. If I were to have a kid and I understand how that sounds like, but that would be my approach Like the end decision of whether I want to have kids ends with me. So if they are gung ho about having kids, then Swipe left right now.
Speaker 3:Have you listened to Kai's episode yet? Oh, I started it, I haven't finished. Yeah, kai's point was just like I thought men didn't want kids and that was like the thing she's like. I can't find a man who doesn't want kids. Yeah, I think she's attracting that into her life, but it is interesting.
Speaker 2:The message we get is like got you know whatever in the movies and the social society at large. It's like guys don't want to be tied down. Guys don't want kids. Guys don't want responsibilities or commitment or whatever it is.
Speaker 1:But I would also love to hear the reasoning why they would want kids. Because, stereotypically, what I've known, what messaging tells us like they're having kids, is having like a play thing and then they don't have to do anything hard work. I would love to hear, like, what their reason is for having kids and if they had thought about the consequences not consequences the toll it takes on the marriage, on finances, on your wife's body or your partner's body.
Speaker 3:Yes, and I think obviously saying that men don't take on the burden of the work is a sweeping statement.
Speaker 1:Yes, but stereotypes come from somewhere and I think we know many instances in modern day marriages where it feels very 1950s almost, the division of labor and like the mental load, like I just saw a clip on social media I think it was like a late night show segment where they went on the streets, went up to heterosexual families so a mom and a dad with kids and they asked the dad questions like who are the kids teachers, what are the kids birthdays, who's a doctor that the kids go to? None of the men could answer. Now this is obviously edited. Who knows how many families where the men could answer? I don't know, because they didn't show that. I guess that just goes along with the messaging of like yeah, they don't pay attention, they don't help, they don't really want kids.
Speaker 2:So I'm just gonna say one thing, because this has been a like another tension point for me and so for some reason this feels the most vulnerable to say but like do it? I struggle with that because I feel like I have the same kind of like resentment, of, like the mental load and obviously we don't have kids, but should we have kids? I have this like pre resentment.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, the mental load and the division of labor, whatever it is, who knows how it will break out. And that is 100% my skill set and I enjoy doing it.
Speaker 2:So I feel this tension because I simultaneously like the idea of managing the household in that way, if you want to call it that, and resent it, and that's been difficult to navigate and I can only imagine what that's like to engage with as a partner because I'm over here just kind of all over the place.
Speaker 2:So it is really interesting because I feel like I have inherited that resentment from generations past and from just society. Can we figure out a way where the skill sets are utilized properly? So if my skill set is doing these things and his skill set is managing our finances, can that be OK? If that's what we decide? That's the thing, I think is that bringing intentionality into it and not just assuming that it's going to play out that way or having the male partner assume that the wife is just going to handle everything that's not what I'm saying. I think when you decide and you discuss it and you have open communication, that's when it's successful and that's what you need. But can that be OK? And so I feel like I really struggle with that.
Speaker 2:I don't want to bring the resentment into our dynamic but if it's something that I am good at and enjoy doing it like, let's harness that, like let's harness that, and you know, both participate in the way we can.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean, I feel like I'm still torn. There's also a feeling of if I do eventually want kids, whether it's naturally or adoption or however it comes about, there's this feeling of but then I gave in, then I suckered back into it. Or it's lame, or I chose the boring path, or it's not. I don't know which doesn't feel great Like that, doesn't feel like it's integrity. Putting that on the decision and when I think about having kids, yeah, there are a lot of things that I would. I think I would really enjoy, I think I would be good at it. That's not to say I wouldn't struggle or make mistakes or anything, but I have always been very good with children. I think it would be interesting to do things differently than how I was raised. I think it would be adorable to see a child of mine interact with you guys, interact with my parents, and to see what that little person would be like. That would be so fascinating. So there are a lot of things that, yeah, I can get behind, do you guys?
Speaker 3:feel more pressure to have children because I have already decided not to A little bit, but it would only that pressure is only coming from myself.
Speaker 1:I want to make it very clear that our parents and I have to give them so much credit for this, because I'm so grateful. They have never once, ever hinted, implied in any way that they wanted grandkids never once. And I am so grateful. I feel absolutely zero pressure from them to get married, to have kids. So I want to make that very clear. The pressure I would be feeling is only coming from myself, because there is a part of me that's like I would love to see mom and dad with a grandchild. I think that would be so precious, that would be so cute to see them in that role. Yeah, they'd be fantastic.
Speaker 1:They would be so good, that child would be so frickin' blessed. And that's another thing. Like I'm putting pressure on myself, like, well, you want to see your parents have a grandchild, like, but I'm not sold that I actually want to give them one.
Speaker 2:Yeah, is that a good enough reason to have a grandchild?
Speaker 3:Yeah, I do think it's interesting that I never have gotten outright pressure to have children, but I still feel it.
Speaker 3:I think part of it is. I'm not blaming generations, they were just doing what they were doing. But we see it on both sides of our family. So all of our dad's brothers and all of our mother's sisters married and had children, multiple children, and we're blessed with a very large cousin group. But those are all narratives and visual cues that we've grown up with. We all know that what you do is you get married and have kids and I feel like we've got some videos and we've heard our parents talking about it, heard our grandparents talking about it and again, that isn't them intentionally putting any sort of pressure, but I think it is narratives that have built up and I can feel the pressure from that. I feel like to answer your question, laura you not having kids?
Speaker 2:it's both yes, because such a good point adds like I do feel a little bit like, oh well, if we're going to provide grandkids, like we're dwindling in numbers of people who can do that, and and then the other side of that is that it allows others to make the same choice. Yes, so it's kind of both, and I feel like that's been my answer for literally all of your questions tonight is yes, and tonight is walking the line.
Speaker 3:We're not going one way or the other.
Speaker 2:It's like I was like I keep talking about. I'm like God, this is so overwhelming because it's always both.
Speaker 3:I'll end on this, which is I am not an expert in child free counseling, but I do think one of the themes that have bubbled up for me in my many, many conversations and my research and just being involved in the child free community is neither path is free of regrets, and I think Nat, who was my last episode she said it so beautifully is we are just living this human experience and there's going to be regrets. There's going to be really deep happiness, hopefully. Either way. This doesn't answer the question, but it's sort of like you can't decide it based on like fear of missing out or fear of regret, because both will happen.
Speaker 1:I think that's the biggest thing for me, because I try to avoid regret at all costs. Yes, I'm always trying to make the best decision and I want to be 100% sure.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I want to be 100% sure in my choice and I don't like taking risks. My fear is I will have kids and there will be one moment of one day where I regret having those kids and that will probably happen.
Speaker 2:And then, if I don't have kids, my fear is that there will be one moment of one day where I will regret not having kids, and that will probably happen, and can that be okay? And then the next moment you don't regret it, and then the next moment you know something happens and you feel so grateful that you've made this choice either direction, but I feel like I want to make the choice, knowing that that 100% won't happen and that is an impossibility.
Speaker 1:There's also the fact of like where I am my age. Obviously, as I get older, that window gets smaller and smaller. So there's part of me that's scared to make a decision, mainly of yes, and it's too late, and then to deal with that disappointment. So there's a possibility that this staunch decision or this staunch feeling of like I don't want kids is there to protect me from potential disappointment. Of like you can't get pregnant, so now that you've decided that you want to, you can't. And like going through freezing your eggs, that sounds like a lot that I don't want to deal with. So I'm kind of like.
Speaker 3:Well, have either of you considered that? I've never asked?
Speaker 2:Absolutely not, it's well for one it's ridiculously expensive. It's so expensive. I would consider it. If I there reached a situation where it was a necessary thing, like if something medically came up that this was a smart choice for me, then I would consider it, but at this point no it's expensive, but it's also not a pleasant experience either.
Speaker 3:Well, thank you both.
Speaker 1:Oh my gosh, this was so much fun. I feel like we could keep talking for hours.
Speaker 2:Well, I will say, I mentioned this when we first brought up this idea. I think this is really interesting because I think all three of us are in kind of different spots with this conversation and that might change. So I'm just kind of curious, you know, and interested to watch how this conversation between us changes, whether or not. We come back on the podcast. Your choice if you invite us back, but I think it will be interesting to see kind of how it shifts over the years.
Speaker 1:Yes, your choice. But also, have you considered having two extra hosts? But I don't want to take this from you. This is your baby and you should be so proud.
Speaker 3:Well, I appreciate you both and I agree, Claire. I think it's worth tracking that evolution so we can come back to the conversation.
Speaker 1:Yeah, this was so awesome. Thanks for letting us come on. Thank you.
Speaker 3:Love you. Bye, and that's it for today. Thank you for joining me. If you enjoyed today's episode, don't forget to subscribe, or please consider leaving a review wherever you get your podcast.
Speaker 1:And.
Speaker 3:I will see you next week. Thanks,
